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SmithFS's avatar

It's nothing short of ridiculous to claim the theoretical EROI of a wind turbine represents the actual EROI of a real world wind installation. And even for their wind turbine we've found out they have very poor data on Chinese manufactured components and materials, likely underestimating embodied energy by 3X on those.

You have to include the access roads to build the wind farm, the energy used by the construction of the wind farm including a portion of the giant cranes & heavy equipment, the energy consumed by the workers (from the income they've earned), the land use effects and of course all the transmission lines & substations. And then O&M energy used as well as the rebuild that is commonly done at ~12yrs. Even the financial services associated with the Wind farm have an energy cost.

And that's just the basics. Then getting into the costs of buffering and the both economic effects and physical effects of the wind farm on the overall grid efficiency. Taking into account such things like curtailment, overbuild, cycling inefficiencies, negative pricing and the economic forcing of low efficiency OCGT, diesel, biomass, conventional coal over high efficiency CCGT, hydro, ultra-supercritical coal and nuclear. Aggregating these effects are very significant on wind & solar since you have so little energy surplus to work with.

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Fred  Jacobs's avatar

Probably some repeated or amplifying thoughts here.

Ok. Where to start. Firstly, as eluded to by George Watts in the coments, it would be useful to compare the EROEI’s from other sources of energy when looking at EROEI numbers. For example, the reference supplied (Weissbach) charts the unbuffered and buffered EROEI’s of wind (being 16 and 3.9, respectively), while nuclear PWR is at 75, period. Those who claim EROEI’s of 40 plus (buffered?) for wind need to show their assumptions and calculations for other energy sources. In addition, the calculation for the EROI needed to run our society (currently thought to be around 12-15 by those who calculated buffered wind EROEI to be 4) should be in that comparison mix. It is clear that these numbers indicate an existential situation.

Secondly, incorporating EROEI savings due to recycling of materials is a misdirection, since the requirement is to EXPAND the wind and solar fleets by at least an order of magnitude to even begin to address greening of the energy economy. This is all new construction. We have as a species never done something at this scale in the specified time. There’s simply not the infrastructure, labor, capital and technical resources or even social buy-in for such a massive expansion of economic activity. Most of this new activity will have to be driven by fossil fuels, which would negate much of the “greening” anyway. And as we consider that, we still need to keep in mind the running our society as well as enabling the third world to join us.

I think that it is clear that trying to argue for windmills (and solar panels) is a distraction. The primary need is to find the highest reliable EROEI system for no better reason than to ensure the survival of the human race. This is the Darwinian situation where, if we aim to reduce our system EROEI’s, we may eventually disappear. This is one of the main mechanisms for biological evolution, after all.

Useful references:

“The Unpopular Truth: about Electricity and the Future of Energy" 2022 by Lars Schernikau & William Hayden Smith.

"Spain’s Photovoltaic Revolution: The Energy Return on Investment" (SpringerBriefs in Energy, 2013th Edition) by Pedro A. Prieto,.

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